Apologies if English isn’t your first language it’s called reading between the lines.

Ill draw it out for you: If people would pay that much (yes insane) money to go to “shit” and mediocre institutions here in the states, what does it say about the options they have locally?

Yup and paying insane amounts of money to get in, too.

True, I would argue though that after a certain amount of time, nobody even cares about the quality, it’s the university name on the degree that is truly important.

You can go anywhere on the planet even decades from now and say you’re from Harvard (take your pick) and you’ll be regarded as a knowledge god even if you were the last in the class to graduate.

Educational quality isn’t everything for getting into a good career, it’s the reputation, and that is what schools in the US (and a few abroad) have in spades.

Hold on, in advanced education here in my area of the states, almost half the population of students in classes I see are of Chinese or Indian backgrounds and most are here on foreign visas.

If the education is so shit, why are there so many foreign students studying here and paying insane amounts of money to do so.

I expected more from an educated person.

But if you don’t want to define the word and cut off the conversation, then you’ve just left me with the belief you are using eugenics as a “scary” word hoping to sound smart. I believe you can represent your field better.

I hope you have a good one.

For anybody still reading: The AI tool is not for eugenics, the researchers should not be punished, it’s not racist to use unethical data, and it helps people who might otherwise die to a horrible disease. It doesn’t help all the people we want it to right now, but hopefully, in the future it will be an amazing tool for everyone.

Define eugenics for me, please.

You’re saying the tool in its current form with it’s data “seems pretty intentionally eugenics” and…“a tool for eugenics”. And since you said the people who made that data, the AI tool, and those who are now using it are also responsible for anything bad …they are by your supposed extension eugenicists/racists and whatever other grotesque and immoral thing you can think of. Because your link says that regardless of intention, the AI engineers should ABSOLUTELY be punished.

They have to fix it, of course, so it can become something other than a tool for eugenics as it is currently. Can you see where I think your argument goes way beyond rational?

Would I have had this conversation with you if the tool worked really well on only black people and allowed white people to die disproportionately? I honestly can’t say. But I feel you would be quiet on the issue. Am I wrong?

I don’t think using the data, as it is, to save lives makes you racist or supports eugenics. You seem to believe it does. That’s what I’m getting after. That’s why I think we are reading different books.

Once again…define eugenics for me, please.

Regardless, nothing I have said means that I don’t recognize institutional racism and that I don’t want the data set to become more evenly distributed so it takes into consideration the full spectrum of human life and helps ALL people.

I know what bioethics is and how it applies to research and engineering. Your response doesn’t seem to really get to the core of what I’m saying: which is that the people making the AI tool aren’t racist.

Help me out: what do the researchers creating this AI screening tool in its current form (with racist data) have to do with it being a tool of eugenics? That’s quite a damning statement.

I’m assuming you have a much deeper understanding of what kind of data this AI screening tool uses and the finances and whatever else that goes into it. I feel that the whole “talk with Africa” to balance out the data is not great sounding and is overly simplified.

Do you really believe that the people who created this AI screening tool should be punished for using this racist data, regardless of provable intent? Even if it saved lives?

Does this kind of punishment apply to the doctor who used this unethical AI tool? His knowledge has to go into building it up somehow. Is he, by extension, a tool of eugenics too?

I understand ethical obligations and that we need higher standards moving forward in society. But even if the data right now is unethical, and it saves lives, we should absolutely use it.

Eugenics??? That’s crazy.

So you’d prefer that they don’t even start working with this screening method until we have gathered enough data to satisfy everyones representation?

Let’s just do that and not do anything until everyone is happy. Nothing will happen ever and we will all collectively suffer.

How about this. Let’s let the people with the knowledge use this “racist” data and help move the bar for health forward for everyone.

I never said that the data gathered over decades wasn’t biased in some way towards racial prejudice, discrimination, or social/cultural norms over history. I am quite aware of those things.

But if a majority of the data you have at your disposal is from fair skinned people, and that’s all you have…using it is not racist.

Would you prefer that no data was used, or that we wait until the spectrum of people are fully represented in sufficient quantities, or that they make up stuff?

This is what they have. Calling them racist for trying to help and create something to speed up diagnosis helps ALL people.

The creators of this AI screening tool do not have any power over how the data was collected. They’re not racist and it’s quite ignorant to reason that they are.

It’s still not racism. The article itself says there is a lack of diversity in the training data. Training data will consist of 100% “obvious” pictures of skin cancers which is most books and online images I’ve looked into seems to be majority fair skinned individuals.

“…such algorithms perform worse on black people, which is not due to technical problems, but to a lack of diversity in the training data…”

Calling out things as racist really works to mask what a useful tool this could be to help screen for skin cancers.

I love going around in 6 feet of snow without clothes

I never said that and I recognize and I sympathize with their struggle. The Chinese people are fine, the PRC is not.

I said the US is better than China. By what degree better is up for argument, sure. The reason the students are protesting here in the US and being heard, and being discussed on the news and openly here online, is because you and I (and everyone else) aren’t in fear that the government will drop police at our door because of this conversation.

I am all for open public debate and discourse, downvotes and all because it’s our right to be heard. It doesn’t matter where, EU, US, or China.

In the US, I have options on what to do if I feel the government isn’t doing the right thing. (Even moving to the EU). You can’t say that if you were a citizien living in China.

Where do you think China is on your scale? Oh yes…5/100

US is 10/100…

US > PRC

I’m sorry, I’m a little dense.

I’m more optimistic than most that the safeguards in place will stop a slide to a full blown nazi government.

So. Still better than China. We agree.

EU > US > China

Did you read the article? They’re literally voicing their opinion, right there.

Becoming more like China, sure, but saying that means it’s not as bad as China. Not a good thing, I agree.

Let’s hope not!

I agree it’s terrible. Still very far from China.

Having a visa revoked is very different from being thrown into a jail or executed.

They have every right to say that about the US, though, and I am happy they can voice thier opinion. Unlike in China, where the government will happily throw you and your family behind bars for saying something even approaching a bad opinion of government action.

Edit - aww I think I irritated the tankies