Gender affirmation only counts to them if it defies the sex or gender binary. They’re completely fine with people modifying their bodies to affirm their masculinity or femininity so long as they were assigned male or female at birth accordingly.

Trans people pursuing medical transition are such a small percentage of the population that cis people getting hormone therapy or affirming surgeries will always dwarf the number of trans people who are. Throw in all of the ways we affirm the gender of cis people, through language and fashion and culture and so on, and it’s evident what their gripe is. It’s never been about children receiving gender affirmation, merely their conviction that transgender people do not exist or are immoral and evil and shouldn’t exist. There’s a reason modern transphobia is highly intertwined with fascism. To believe that an entire group of people, based solely on their gender, is immoral and evil is only possible through a lense of dehumanization and conspiracy. Something they are especially good at. We are too few in number and too disparate to counteract the efforts of fascists, who by themselves outnumber us in every way.

Fascists do not see trans people as human beings. It’s not a matter of thinking. They literally view trans kids as subhuman and want to implement a state apparatus to forcefully abuse them with conversion therapy.

Trans women are not fucking testosterone brutes. We’re women. I have literally 0 blood testosterone. I am post op and do not produce literally any testosterone.

I mean where else would you want them to compete? Are there trans men out there demanding to compete in women’s sports? If sports is sex or gender segregated than yeah they should compete with men.

A baby. Are it’s genitals relevant somehow?

Trans women are not male.

The bar for entry is and has always been several years of sustained hormone therapy with normal estrogen and testosterone levels. And even that is far too restrictive.

What about groups of cisgender women who are above the physical average for women as a whole? Why is the proposal to ban transgender women and not other groups/classes of women based on them being on par above average? I mean is it fair for women from South Korea to compete against women from the Netherlands? Should women from the Netherlands be banned from competition? They have an average advantage, so it’s unfair to the rest of the women that they’re allowed at all.

Your essential argument has to be that transgender women are not women. There is no other argument for excluding trans women that adequately explains why it’s necessary for trans women to be excluded and not anyone else.

True! Yes trans men should be allowed to compete in men’s categories. I think they are strictly speaking so long as their T levels aren’t abnormally high (same as all men).

So yeah it isn’t fair, so we can stop saying that excluding trans women is about fairness then.

Most of the trans community absolutely does not agree that trans women should be excluded from women’s sports, no clue where you’re getting that from.

And trans women are women, excluding us from women’s sports is literally not fair. We are not men, nor are we male. So we are not going to compete in men sports or male categories.

And if we don’t make sports fair for everyone then why are you talking about fairness?? If it’s not fair already then what materially is lost by trans women competing?

Say a transgender woman wins at a competition in women’s sports, what materially has been lost here? A woman won a women’s sporting event. What is happening that is unfair?? She’s female, she’s a woman, so how can you assert that she shouldn’t be able to participate in women’s sports? To what end? What is lost by letting the half a dozen trans female athletes in the world compete?

The literal only justification for it is a fundamental belief that trans women are not female or are not women. Any other attempt at justifying it falls apart at the seams because there are more outlier women physically than there are transgender women at all, so banning transgender women but allowing outlier women to compete is literally just banning us cause we’re trans.

Preventing trans women from competing in women’s sports is a ban on trans women in sports. Trans women do not have testosterone levels anywhere near cis male levels. And none of us are going to degrade ourselves by being categorized as men.

If you would make trans women compete against men then you’re saying trans women aren’t women. It’s as simple as that.

But there are more than 2 observable variations of humans.

There have also been many cultures with more 2 than sexes/genders (the difference is literally 0 prior to the 50s).

And animals have genitals but they do not have conceptions of sex. They don’t abstract categories from physical attributes they just recognize and respond to the bodies around them.

So cis women with CAIS (XY) are out too then.

So de facto banning some women from any kind of professional sporting competition is acceptable because it’s too much work to include them? Why is that acceptable to you? And why is it necessary to couch these concepts in discussions about fairness when you yourself admit they are not fair? Excluding female people from female categories seems counterproductive to any attempts at providing level playing fields for women and girls in professional athletics.

Also there are other groups of women that are on average more physically capable then the average for women as a whole. Should they also be excluded?

Can you define male puberty though? Like qualitatively in specific terms and with specific language?

Being pro trans is being pro women. Excluding some women from women’s sports would be discriminatory to those women. In this case those women are transgender, and they are being excluded because they are transgender. Which would be opposed to their right to participate, a right we recognize for all other women and girls. That would be anti trans, in this specific context. It doesn’t mean you oppose all of trans rights, but you’re actively supporting the exclusion of trans people from professional athletics.

So any woman stronger than the average for women ought to also be excluded then? Again, why is it specific that trans women be excluded?

There are not and likely will not be anywhere near enough trans people to occupy a single category at a single event. Refusing to allow trans women to compete as women, like every other woman, is a de facto ban on transgender women participating in sporting events. Transgender women are women, just like tall women are women and women with large lung capacity are women. Why should trans women be excluded for being above average but other women who are above average shouldn’t be?

It’s objectively the truth that sex is another class category created by humans to sort people and enforce a hierarchy of sex. That argument (trans women are male women) was adopted to appeal to cisgender people.

I’m female, I am a woman. I’m not male. My legal sex is female.

Intersex people exist and the variation of people assigned one sex or the other is damn near infinite so no, the assertion that sex is binary is really only ever used to exclude transgender people and intersex people from rights and to assert that there is a biological basis for assigned gender roles. Sex is dimorphic because we choose to describe it that way, we could just as easily have more sexes just by creating more categories based on aspects of human physiology.

And I’m female, so the only ethical rationale would be that I would compete with other people that we consider female.

Lots of things? There’s no one single thing that affects hormones. Not every person with a specific anatomy has the same hormones.

So it’s just a ban on trans women from sports, just because with no actual logic or ethical rationale behind it. Even though it is literally not fair, and the justification provided for it is “fairness”. Gotcha.

So again why are cisgender women who are above average allowed to compete but transgender women are CATEGORICALLY not allowed to compete even if we’re within the average for all women?