This has been my main question these few days, the ever hyped and ‘perfect’ Iron Dome. And Mossad, an Intelligence agency considered one of the best in the world. Where did the failure happen?
Don’t get me wrong. This attack was a tragedy. But what happened to the security infrastructure that Israel is so proud of
But what happened to the security infrastructure that Israel is so proud of
Sometimes things need to magically “fail” so leaders can get the war that they want, but can’t openly start.
Especially when they’re in trouble for corruption charges and making sweeping changes to their country’s justice system to help themselves at the detriment of their democracy?
detriment of their democracy
detriment of their liberal democracy
important destinction
The Israeli far right and Hamas are symbiotic, they justify each other’s rule and keep the other in power
That is just the thing. It was the same with GB and the IRA. Terrorist organization and the hard-line governments they oppose have a simbiotic relationship to their mutual benefit and the detriment of anybody else.
I hate agreeing with conspiracy theories but everyone here gets what they want. Everyone being Hamas and Bibi, and what they want being sticking to power.
Right now it’s not a conspiracy theory, it’s important questions that need answers before it gets swept under the rug
When you look into the kind of stuff that happens worldwide, you’ll quickly realise that the usual conspiracy theories become tame in comparison to the real world. There’s a credible reason why an apartheid state would synthesise conditions for further oppression.
As a lesser known example, is Operation Car Wash in Brazil. You might remember a few years ago current President Lula was under investigation for corruption. Then the Car Wash leaks[1] happened and showed the whole thing was a right wing legal campaign with actual US agents involved.
It was reported that Mr. Dallagnol had called Lula da Silva’s arrest “a gift from the CIA”.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Car_Wash#Leaked_conversations
And striking a music festival?
Im sure the old, conservative hardliners on both sides didnt mind that too much.
#MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
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Christ, conspiracy already. 🙄
Do you victim blame rape victims too?
the victims are israelis; the government of israel is a separate entity… heck, the people in charge in israel are separate entities again
The only victims here are both the Israeli and Palestinian citizens, who have more accurately been gangbanged from both sides by the IDF and Hamas.
Nice false equivalency and misinterpretation of my point.
The Iron Dome is there to stop rockets, not cars and paragliders. (The latter could potentially change.)
Any air defense system is vulnerable to saturation.
The best educated, non conspiratorial guess I can offer is that the sheer number of projectiles overwhelmed the system.
That’s accepting that the reports of thousands of rockets launched is accurate, mind you.
The dome is pretty great but hamas claims 5k missiles launched and other sources say at least 2k. There’s no way they’re going to intercept them all. As for the intelligence failure, who knows.
This is my thinking too. Enough were launched to overwhelm the system.
So the system is ineffective.
I don’t think it’s a conspiracy. It’s the first question my wife asked when I told her about it. Neither of us believe that this could have happened without Mossad knowing about it.
You think it is a conspiracy then.
To be fair, it’s possible for an intelligence agency to know of a possible attack, and not have anything done about it, without a conspiracy to let it happen, if issues with communication between parts of said agency or between it and the government as a whole lead to warnings not being properly shared with the right people or not being properly acted upon.
“Bin Laden determined to strike in US.”
I think the world is full of secret agencies, that are less competent than they claim.
Mossads public image was to neither deny or acknowkledge. It is not hard to imagine, that the world and the mossad itself were misjudging. Hybris is a hell of a problem.
I’m just gonna put a tinfoil hat on and guess some of the top secret documents Trump let Saudis / Iranians peruse had relevant Intel to these events
But I’m just guessing
I don’t think you need a tin foil hat, to believe that Trump compromised intelligence on many levels to many people he shouldn’t have…
I would say the agency dealing with homeland terrorism (I guess this is the way Israel looks at this) would rather be Shin Bet than Mossad.
Wasnt pearl harbor an attack on a military base? So a totally valid target for a war. This was an attack on civillians so the comparision is bad.
That’s not the point of the comparison. The point of similarity is that it was a significant blow that struck without the defenders anticipating it.
I thought it was to go to war? Before that the US pubic was super anti-joining WWII (like 80+%), then all of a sudden, for the first and last time in history of logic, in the middle of a world conflict no less, they put all of their navy eggs in one lil basket & announced that very publicly to everyone.
it was actually done to prevent a war, as weird as it may sound.
- It was meant to intimidate the Japanese and prevent them from attacking the US. kind of a “look at us, we put our fleet closer to you, we are ready to fight you, so don’t even try to attack us!” move. didn’t really work out as planned though.
- It was also done to intimidate the Japanese into stopping committing their Atrocities in China.
So no, it was most certainly not done to enter a war.
I know what was the formal rhetoric, yet nobody can explain how grouping ships (that Japanese already knew about & their numbers didn’t suddenly increase) in a very defenseless way helps intimidate anyone that does not come for a guided tour - which wasn’t really needed as they intentionally posted detailed photos in papers & sent the seamen on vacation.
Not to mention that you can’t intimidate someone with a bad tactical decision, this isn’t a split second decision-making, all of it takes months of planning. And all the documented warnings within the military were just ignored as false positives.
And US didn’t really give a damn about China at that time (no political pressure either), but they owned quite a lot of debt and other interests towards various European countries. But the public was still full of veterans from previous wars & Nazi propaganda was hitting strong in US (eg rich manufacturers & exporters like Ford, but also “common folk” responded to their, em, “racial theories”).
But above all that, everytime since the civil war when US arms industry didn’t get a big hike in spending seemingly extremely
provokedpreventable attacks happen that saway the public option in a big way for the next two decades (then hippies come, get criminalized, a few years of peace, etc).So in about 10 years or so US will rig live nukes (in a random city like Las Vegas) & connect them to a big red bottom, pay Hollywood to make action movies about it … then sad times of money over mass tragedy continue.
On January 27, 1941, Grew secretly cabled the State Department with rumors passed on by the Peruvian Minister to Japan: “Japan military forces planned a surprise mass attack at Pearl Harbor in case of ‘trouble’ with the United States.” – wiki/Joseph_Grew
Edit: Oh, my bad, US did go beyond politics & actively blockaded resources to Japan.
Agreed, it’s more like 9/11 for Israel.
Were the people auditing a missing $9 trillion in government spending killed?
So a totally valid target for a war
only two small Problems:
- they didn’t constrain themselves to just military installations
- the Fact that there was no fucking war at the time
idk about you, but imo you need to actually be at war to be allowed to attack anything, even if you think it’s a “totally valid target for war”
Non-amp, non-google redirect link: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/07/middleeast/israel-gaza-border-security-intl/index.html
Reading books by CIA folks over the years, Mossad has benefitted from Arabs that feel this violence isn’t reasonable, and provide intel to help stop raids. I can guess that Iran has helped with signal intel over time to determine who’s calling in tips, and left those people in place while cutting them out of the loop on this attack. Probably Mossad was getting false traffic from normal moles while all this was planned.
Sadly there’s not a good end for those informers post attack, they served their role to keep Mossad complacent, and likely died just after the strike.
All conjecture (I have no intel sources on this), but bad for Mossad if true. This would leave them back to square one on human intel if it happened.
War has changed. Drones, internet and new MANPADS have eroded Israel’s technological supremacy as shown in Ukraine vs Russia. Now it is more risky for Israel to go against their enemies. Already there’s footage of the vaunted Merkava tank blown to pieces. Also, this was the perfect storm:
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The US is preoccupied with political infigthing (thanks, Republitards!)
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The Israeli government was busy oppressing it’s own Jewish people because they drunk too much rightwing koolaid (thanks, Trumpettes!)
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Item no. 2 made Israel lose a lot of support from the West.
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Technological weapons breakthroughs in Ukraine (thanks, Putin!)
They made their bed, and now they have to sleep in it. The balance of power has shifted. I forsee Israel using nukes in the next 5 to 10 years out of desperation but it will backfire spectacularly.
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HUBRIS
Because it’s an expensive propaganda tool. Insanely expensive against cheap and plentiful Scud missiles.
Plus, there’s not much incentive to stop 100% of the missiles because that would make it harder to justify military aid. Though in this case it could easily be that the system just isn’t as effective as it likes to tell the people it’s encouraging to move into Palestinian homes.
Because it wasn’t supposed to
care to elaborate?
nobody in the entire US military saw Jan 6 coming either
Protecting the US from itself is an issue distinctly for civilian agencies… and it wasn’t that none of them failed to foresee issues… it’s that they can’t act before a crime has been committed and the capitol police were denied reinforcements.
… and it’s really that last part that’s the crux of the issue… if capital police had been given reinforcements, there never would’ve been a Jan 6th.
Yup, Ttere was a lot of chatter on how trump’s protest rally could easily turn violent. We’ve been slowly getting info since then that basically trump or a lackey had to give permission to send in the national guard.
We knew that day of. I was watching that live the day that it happened and they repeatedly said that they were waiting on approval from the Whitehouse IIRC both for the capital police and for activation of the DC national guard.
Several forms of conspiracy are crimes.
Except the Iron Dome has been active 24/7 for years and is arguably the most effective ground-based aerial defense system in the world.
Please understand that I’m not endorsing any conspiracies. I’m genuinely curious what happened. Right now my best informed hypothesis is that the sheer number of rockets launched managed to overwhelm the system.
If anyone has better information I would greatly appreciate hearing it.
The missile attack was pure saturation. So many objects in the air at once is just too much for the few launchers available. There’s only like 7 of them actually online at any given time. They cost a billion dollars each.
They waited for a day everyone wants to be home, did a massive attack to send everyone into hiding, and then breached the gates. It’s such a massive power move that no one thought they’d be stupid enough to do. Yes, it succeeded, but they can’t win, and the response now will be tenfold more powerful. And justified.
Thank you for the additional information
And somehow nobody thought it would happen on the 50th anniversary of the yom kippur war, to the day
Is it even arguable? What else would come close? My assumption is the same, stock up and then throw everything you have blitzkrieg style in an effort to oversaturated it.
Plenty of military people saw it coming. They were prevented from acting on it by the same powers that were commiting the crime
The US military was more prepared for the Area 51 raid
